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	<title>Comments on: Rethinking the Desktop Model</title>
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	<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/</link>
	<description>Information Security Think Tank</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: FilipM</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123627</link>
		<dc:creator>FilipM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 11:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123627</guid>
		<description>I follow JasonD. Slowly all the pieces from the Google puzzle come together. Chrome is just the next step for the bigger Google plan: Beeing the new Microsoft...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I follow JasonD. Slowly all the pieces from the Google puzzle come together. Chrome is just the next step for the bigger Google plan: Beeing the new Microsoft&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: New Addition: Security News Links for the week of 8/31 &#124; Nicholson Security</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123621</link>
		<dc:creator>New Addition: Security News Links for the week of 8/31 &#124; Nicholson Security</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 23:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123621</guid>
		<description>[...] Rethinking the Desktop Model [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Rethinking the Desktop Model [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JasonD</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123612</link>
		<dc:creator>JasonD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123612</guid>
		<description>Isn't this what Google are effectively trying to push out with Chrome?

Chrome is the browser and Google gears (a prerequisite for Chrome) is essentially a web browser that proxies and serves content up</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t this what Google are effectively trying to push out with Chrome?</p>
<p>Chrome is the browser and Google gears (a prerequisite for Chrome) is essentially a web browser that proxies and serves content up</p>
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		<title>By: pdp</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123607</link>
		<dc:creator>pdp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 08:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123607</guid>
		<description>duid, all valid points. but you have to admit that we simply wont know whether it is more secure or less secure unless we try it. imho, it will be a much better, streamlined approach to technology and it will definitely improve the security along the way. but this is my opinion only. however, if you look around, you will see that everything becomes web-enabled nowadays. perhaps, even more people think like me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>duid, all valid points. but you have to admit that we simply wont know whether it is more secure or less secure unless we try it. imho, it will be a much better, streamlined approach to technology and it will definitely improve the security along the way. but this is my opinion only. however, if you look around, you will see that everything becomes web-enabled nowadays. perhaps, even more people think like me.</p>
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		<title>By: duid</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123582</link>
		<dc:creator>duid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 11:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123582</guid>
		<description>How will this improve security?

1) The apps need to access user data. X11 apps run as user context. They can do whatever they like and will not be able to read data of other user. Your web site program can read data of other users have to check permissions for themself. The smallest security bug can mean a disaster.

2) The performance of dynamic web sites is very low and the latency is very high compared to X11 programs. You have very limited possibilities on what you can display. Complex layouts are even slower and destroyed very quickly if the user changes the font size in his browser.

3) Programs often need access to special hardware: sound, 3d graphics, joystick, camera and a lot more. You have to program an abstraction layer for all of these. (You do not seriously want to use flash, do you?)

4) All cross-side scripting bugs which I have seen so far are caused by doing things in your browser which should rather be done by a client application. You can do email, banking, ... in a client. I think blogs, boards, ... should rather be done by a client (there are protocols like nntp which would be nice to see revised). Wikis should be a program on their own. Nothing should send any more data to an http server than asking about the content the user wants to see.

5) There is no such thing as "operating system independance" programs. There are just (1) programs which run on one platform, (2) programs which have been ported, (3) programs which do not use any advanced operating system features and (4) programs, which have their own slow+buggy implementation of nearly everything the operating system would have done for them. When have you seen e.g. the last java program which can be configured via ~/.Xressources, sends mails by invoking the "sendmail" binary or changes the language based on the "locales" configuration?

6) I think this web-hype is mostly caused by 2 reasons: (1) ad income, (2) income by selling user data (nobody knows what is going on). I consider none of these things to be good for any user.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How will this improve security?</p>
<p>1) The apps need to access user data. X11 apps run as user context. They can do whatever they like and will not be able to read data of other user. Your web site program can read data of other users have to check permissions for themself. The smallest security bug can mean a disaster.</p>
<p>2) The performance of dynamic web sites is very low and the latency is very high compared to X11 programs. You have very limited possibilities on what you can display. Complex layouts are even slower and destroyed very quickly if the user changes the font size in his browser.</p>
<p>3) Programs often need access to special hardware: sound, 3d graphics, joystick, camera and a lot more. You have to program an abstraction layer for all of these. (You do not seriously want to use flash, do you?)</p>
<p>4) All cross-side scripting bugs which I have seen so far are caused by doing things in your browser which should rather be done by a client application. You can do email, banking, &#8230; in a client. I think blogs, boards, &#8230; should rather be done by a client (there are protocols like nntp which would be nice to see revised). Wikis should be a program on their own. Nothing should send any more data to an http server than asking about the content the user wants to see.</p>
<p>5) There is no such thing as &#8220;operating system independance&#8221; programs. There are just (1) programs which run on one platform, (2) programs which have been ported, (3) programs which do not use any advanced operating system features and (4) programs, which have their own slow+buggy implementation of nearly everything the operating system would have done for them. When have you seen e.g. the last java program which can be configured via ~/.Xressources, sends mails by invoking the &#8220;sendmail&#8221; binary or changes the language based on the &#8220;locales&#8221; configuration?</p>
<p>6) I think this web-hype is mostly caused by 2 reasons: (1) ad income, (2) income by selling user data (nobody knows what is going on). I consider none of these things to be good for any user.</p>
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		<title>By: Security Stallions Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Friday Edition: WiR</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123558</link>
		<dc:creator>Security Stallions Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Friday Edition: WiR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123558</guid>
		<description>[...] all that and I&#8217;m still on Tuesday.  Dang.  OK, next one pdp posted an article over at GNUCITIZEN about &#8220;Rethinking the Desktop Model&#8221;.  I&#8217;m assuming this was [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] all that and I&#8217;m still on Tuesday.  Dang.  OK, next one pdp posted an article over at GNUCITIZEN about &#8220;Rethinking the Desktop Model&#8221;.  I&#8217;m assuming this was [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rodrigo Salvalagio</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123555</link>
		<dc:creator>Rodrigo Salvalagio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 15:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123555</guid>
		<description>Using granularity: We can use a boot circuit to always get the most recent kernel and browser from a master server. And could use separate boot images for different areas inside a company. Saying that, an administrator can patch once and play a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Using granularity: We can use a boot circuit to always get the most recent kernel and browser from a master server. And could use separate boot images for different areas inside a company. Saying that, an administrator can patch once and play a lot.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: favertama</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123521</link>
		<dc:creator>favertama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:45:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123521</guid>
		<description>have you tried  http://g.ho.st/  WebOS?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>have you tried  <a href="http://g.ho.st/" rel="nofollow">http://g.ho.st/</a>  WebOS?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123511</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123511</guid>
		<description>there is such a beast. gOS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there is such a beast. gOS.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Shirley</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123510</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Shirley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123510</guid>
		<description>One of the main reasons apps are written for the web is that it aids distribution massively. You have no install issues for users and, more importantly, large organisations don't end up running "GMail 1995" as the currently do "Office '95". This seems to make deploying local apps from a webserver pointless. 

It does however have one advantage, You can deploy the same code  on your servers as you do on (maybe the more advanced) clients computers.

I have always thought that going away from javascript webapps and towards Java webstart would be the best way to achieve simple webapp style deployment for richer local applications. Webstart (assuming you distribute the source of your app) also has the shared codebase advantage as a more advanced user could download the code (possibly modifying it) and deploy it locally without having to rely on your webserver.

NB. webstart also has the advantage that once an app is downloaded the first time, it will run offline (although it won't updating itself). The missing link here is accessing remote data offline, google gears style.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the main reasons apps are written for the web is that it aids distribution massively. You have no install issues for users and, more importantly, large organisations don&#8217;t end up running &#8220;GMail 1995&#8243; as the currently do &#8220;Office &#8216;95&#8243;. This seems to make deploying local apps from a webserver pointless. </p>
<p>It does however have one advantage, You can deploy the same code  on your servers as you do on (maybe the more advanced) clients computers.</p>
<p>I have always thought that going away from javascript webapps and towards Java webstart would be the best way to achieve simple webapp style deployment for richer local applications. Webstart (assuming you distribute the source of your app) also has the shared codebase advantage as a more advanced user could download the code (possibly modifying it) and deploy it locally without having to rely on your webserver.</p>
<p>NB. webstart also has the advantage that once an app is downloaded the first time, it will run offline (although it won&#8217;t updating itself). The missing link here is accessing remote data offline, google gears style.</p>
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		<title>By: pdp</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123509</link>
		<dc:creator>pdp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123509</guid>
		<description>perhaps. i am sure that you will find more problems with it. i am merely suggesting something that may work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>perhaps. i am sure that you will find more problems with it. i am merely suggesting something that may work.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: param</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123507</link>
		<dc:creator>param</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123507</guid>
		<description>You do realize that X is way too bloated to make your lean mean setup credible, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You do realize that X is way too bloated to make your lean mean setup credible, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Aldis</title>
		<link>http://www.gnucitizen.org/blog/rethinking-the-desktop-model/#comment-123498</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Aldis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 01:47:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.gnucitizen.org/?p=1199#comment-123498</guid>
		<description>I have been thinking about this for a long time, Have tryed to come up with a windows version in VB.net but thought that starting with a basic linux package would probably be better. with VB.net these web applications can then have transparant backgrounds or a developer could extend the applications with plugins on a per-application basis. I think it is very important to create some sort of "web-desktop" with a good (web)application launcher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been thinking about this for a long time, Have tryed to come up with a windows version in VB.net but thought that starting with a basic linux package would probably be better. with VB.net these web applications can then have transparant backgrounds or a developer could extend the applications with plugins on a per-application basis. I think it is very important to create some sort of &#8220;web-desktop&#8221; with a good (web)application launcher.</p>
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